PASS IT ON WEBINAR – August 25, 2007

Reporting to RSA

JEREMY BUZZELL: . . . microphone to make sure that

folks are able to hear me. Am I sounding okay?

Carolyn, did you have any other things that you

needed to do in terms of introduction, or am I supposed to

just go ahead?

CAROLYN PHILLIPS: Jeremy, we'll go ahead and let

you take it away. I know that you've got a lot to cover,

and then we'll actually have Joy cover the information that

she needs to cover. And then we'll do some question and

answer, and then we'll have Caroline do some updates on


So if you'll go ahead and lead us off, that would

be great. And, Jeremy, thanks again for joining us today.

JEREMY: Okay. And I'm seeing that Kathy in

San Antonio isn't able to hear me, so maybe there's a way

for Caroline -- if you're on -- to -- okay. She's working

with her now. All right.

Well, we generally get good turnout for Webinars or

presentations that we do on data collection, not because

people are generally too enthusiastic about data

collection -- some are -- but because, you know, there is

always anxiety surrounding, you know, what are we going to

be responsible for reporting to RSA?

Now, we did a session on data collection in Denver,

and that was between Deborah Buck who does the National

Information System for AT under one of our other grant

programs and myself where we gave a decent overview of what

was going on for data collection but didn't get into things

really deeply. Nor did we say, okay, you know, here's the

stuff for you to gear up to be ready to do. And that is

the purpose of this Webinar -- is, I'm going to lay out for

you pretty clearly, you know, "Okay, folks. This is what

you're going to be responsible for reporting to RSA next

year and the following year, which are the last two years

of your grant." So that's the bad news.

The good news is that compared to what we discussed

in Denver -- actually, what I'm going to discuss with you

all right now is going to be what, I assume, you will think

is greatly simplified compared to the last discussion we

had about data collection. The reasons for that are many.

But one of them has to do with OM -- office of management

and budget rules about data collections and the

complications that ensue from that. So we have decided to

take a different approach with data collection than we

first discussed with you in Denver. Luckily for you, like

I said, it is not a more complicated data-collection

approach. It actually is a simplified data-collection

approach. But let me begin by wrapping up the data that we

did last year. So if we can move to the next slide.

So right now you are just at the tail end of year

one for your grant. Now you're going to have to pay real

close attention because there's a whole bunch of dates that

I'm going to throw at you, and the dates start moving

around, depending on what year you're in. And I'll explain

why that happens because some of it is, in fact, a little

bit arbitrary. But you can rest assured that we will

inform you well ahead of time when things are going to be

due, what periods they cover, et cetera, et cetera.

So what you actually have under these grants are,

you have budget periods, and you have performance periods.

And unfortunately, the way these work is that they are not

necessarily going to be the same. The budget period is not

going to be the same as your performance period. Your

budget period is always going to be October 1st through

September 30th. So, you know, September 30 of this year

ends budget period one; October 1st of this year begins

budget period two and so on and so forth. Your performance

periods are different.

We have had, basically, a rule that came out in the

Department of Education that said we must provide our

continuation funding, which means, you know, when you get a

three-year grant, your next year's worth of funding is no

later than July 30th of every year. However, the rule is,

we can't provide continuation funding to you until you have

provided to us a report that shows you have made

substantial progress. Therefore, we have to have a report

from you in advance of the end of July 30th in order to

provide your second year's worth of funding. So that's why

the two periods don't necessarily match up.

Now, the difference between a budget and

performance periods are: The budget period is the amount

of time during which you have to spend your money. Your

performance period has to do with, basically, your

activities. You know, so your performance period is, we

did this stuff over this period of time. And it may very

well not line up with the expenditures of your money. It

is very confusing. It is very confusing to me, so I assume

it's probably confusing to others. But like I said, we

will send you updates about what data is due when in plenty

of time that this will be clear to everyone.

So your year one of your grant ends September 30th

for budget purposes, which means you need to have obligated

funds by September 30th, and then you need to liquidate

them by December 30th, which is 30 days later. Now,

because these are three-year discretionary grants, you are

allowed to carry funds over. So if you haven't spent all

of your year-one funds, that's okay. You can carry them

over into the second year. We've made arrangements for

that in the 524B, so no worries about that.

Separately from your budget period, again, is you

have a reporting period. Now, because you had to report to

us by July 15th, 2007, really your performance period ended

July 15th -- this last July 15th -- because you reported on

your activities up to that point. So that's your reporting


So I want to thank everyone for submitting their

524Bs. We took care of things in a pretty reasonable

fashion, you know, and that means we had a lot easier end

of the fiscal year. So because of those -- because of the

early due date for the report that you provided, we need to

pay attention, then, to what's going to happen in the next

fiscal year in terms of your data collection because it

might get confusing. So if you can go to the next slide.

Okay. So at the bottom of this slide I have in

bold and underlined "Watch For the Shift" because you're

going to start seeing shifting dates. Depending on what

year we're in, the dates are going to shift, and we need --

because we need to sort of make things line up across three

years, even though we are being told that we have to have

all of our information in and taken care of before July

30th. So your year-two budget period begins October 1,

2007, goes through September 30th, 2008. That's pretty

straightforward because your last budget period did the

same thing.

However, here's what we're going to do with your

performance for the next year, and performance, again, is

the activities you're reporting to us on, you know, about

what progress you made. So we're going to say that since

you submitted your report July 15th, what we're going to

say is, okay. Your performance period for next year is

what you've done from July 15th, 2007 -- or I guess it

should by July 16th -- I guess I'm incorrect -- to May

31st, 2008. Now, why May 31st, 2008? Again, I have to

have all of my continuation grants processed by July 30th,

which means I need a report from you no later than July

1st, which means what I want is to have -- which means I

need to give you the month of June to prepare the report.

Therefore, if you stop collecting your data May 31st and

you start working on your report, then you have a month,

from June 1 to June 30, to turn your report in next year.

I have a month to review the reports, and then we can do

the continuations from there. So start thinking about, you

know, essentially where your last report left off, where

your last 524B left off. That's where your next 524B --

which is going to be due next July 1st -- is going to


However, the actual quantitative data you're going

to collect for us -- we're not going to make you backdate

your quantitative data to July. That would be unfair since

it's not until today that we're telling you, "Here's what

you have to collect for us." So your quantitative data

that I'm going to tell you about during this presentation,

you're going to start collecting that October 1st and

collect it through May 31st, 2008. Okay? So your

performance period for your activities will go July 16th to

May 31st. It will pick up where you last left off, but the

actual quantitative data you collect won't kick in until

October 1st, which means when you report to us next July 1,

you're going to only have to include your data from October

1 through May 31.

Now, some of you might ask the question, "Well,

what if we have the data prior to that?" Our preference is

to keep everyone doing the same amount of time because what

it does is, it skews the numbers. Those extra couple of

months might, you know, give one state an extra couple

hundred, and then people will look at the states and say,

"Well, gee, that state is outperforming that state," which

wouldn't be a fair statement because there's actually extra

months' worth of data.

So we'll be asking, as of October 1, please be

recording this quantitative data, and then your reporting

period will be October 1, 2007, through May 31st, 2008.

I'm going to pause there, assuming this is already

confusing enough, to see what questions people might have

up to this point. So I'm going to release the mike.

CAROLYN: If nobody has any questions at this

point, it must be as clear as it can be, and we can

probably move on, Jeremy.

JEREMY: Unfortunately, "clear as can be" is not a

particularly high standard for issues like this. So okay.

So I'm going to continue talking about your

reporting for year two. So now remember, last year you

gave us what I would call, you know, a qualitative report.

You looked at the activities you said you were going to do

in year one, and you described in a narrative way which

ones you did or did not meet. You're going to have to do

that again. And those qualitative reports on the

activities you did -- that starts where your last report

left off and goes through next June 1st for a report that

comes to us July 1st.

In addition to that, you're going to have to report

to us quantitative data on the actual output of your

program. Again, that quantitative data doesn't kick in a

notch until October 1st and goes through May 31st, so it's

on the same ending schedule as your qualitative data.

This is all you're going to have to report to us:

Number one, the number of individuals receiving devices.

Number two, the number of devices reused, and that will

have to be broken down by type of device. And later on

there will be a table that I will show you so that makes

more sense, and you will also have to report the cost

savings related to these devices. And again, that cost

savings also is broken down by type of device, and this is

all in a table. So it's those three data points -- the

three data points are broken out a little bit more than

that because of the whole device-type issue, but really,

that's pretty much it that we're talking about.

Now, the one thing I want to point out is, we're

talking about aggregate data. So we're not asking you to

report, you know, on each individual device. You're not

going to send us a report for -- if you had, you know, a

hundred devices reused, you're not sending us a hundred

different cost savings, a hundred different types, et

cetera. It's all taking everything at the end of the year

and reporting it all on the aggregate. So all we're going

to get is the total at the end of the year, not each

individual transaction. And again, there's a table that

you'll basically be filling out that reflects this. So can

you move to the next slide?

Okay. Now, right now before I even get into this

data, there are some folks who are grantees under the AT

Act that are saying, "Okay. I've seen this before. I'm

already collecting some of this under the AT Act. How am I

supposed to differentiate between what happened under the

AT Act and what happened under this grant?" That's an

awfully good question. We have the same question for you.

So the first thing we're going to say is, you're not going

to report the same data twice. You're not going to come

out at the end of the year -- and let's say you reused 500

devices total during the course of the year -- you're not

going to be putting 500 devices into the NISAT system and

500 devices into your 524B. You are going to have to

disaggregate the devices you reused based on which grant

they fell under. Okay?

But because everyone has taken a slightly different

approach to this -- to the way that they do their grant,

what we discussed was, there really is no one solution that

works for everyone in terms of disaggregating that data.

For instance, there are some states that said, "Well, with

our AT Act money we have three device reuse sites right

now, and with this other grant, we're going to increase

that to five." So they might be able to be very simple and

say, "Well, here's how we disaggregated the data. Anything

done at the three original centers will go into NISAT.

Anything done at the two additional centers will go into

the 524B."

Another state might not have that case. Another

state might have the same infrastructure in place but just

increased volume across at infrastructure. That state

might decide to do something about a proportion. They

might say, "Well, under the AT Act, we spent this amount of

dollars on reuse. With our reuse grant we spent this

amount of dollars on reuse, and the ratio of those

expenditures is, let's say, three to one. We spent three

times the amount of money under our reuse grant on reuse as

we do under our AT Act. So therefore, for every one device

that we report into NISAT, we're going to report three into

our 524B under the reuse program because that's sort of our

funding distribution."

There are a number of ways your state can approach

this disaggregation based on the model that works for you.

What we are asking is for you, as a state, to come up with

a disaggregation plan to tell us, "Hey, this is what works

for us, given the structure of our state." Send your

disaggregation plan to RSA. We're going to talk it over

with you. We'll talk it over with the Pass It On Center

just to make sure we all understand how it works. We can

work out any kinks in it, and then we will move forward.

Okay? So, you know, hopefully that's about as clear as

mud. We're giving you a lot of discretion on how you come

up with that disaggregation, which may make your life

easier. It may make your lives harder. But what we

assumed was just telling you, "Here's how you must

disaggregate the data" actually might be complicated for

all the different models that are out there working.

So I'm going to pause here, you know, to open up

for questions for those of you folks -- if you have

questions about this disaggregation concept. If you have

questions about the data points themselves, there's

actually slides that we're going to come to later that I'll

open up again to discuss the actual data-collection points.

And the question from Julia is, "When would the

plans be due from AT state programs?" That actually was

one of the questions I was hoping, at the end, when there's

going to be an opportunity for a more open discussion with

you, Joy, and Carolyn that some of the states who are going

to have to do this can say to us, "Hey, listen. It's

probably going to take us X amount of time to figure this

out," and we can be reasonable in our deadline.

Now, bearing in mind that October 1st is creeping

up on people, obviously, the sooner the better because it's

going to be helpful for you in getting your data structures

in place. But hopefully at the end we can sort of broach

that question of, "Hey, what sounds reasonable here? Given

the way your state works and how you're going to have to

think about this, how long do you think it will take to

generate this concept for us?" And I don't think we're

asking for anything particularly complicated in terms of

submission. I mean, you know, if you can just put together

a Word document, we're hoping it doesn't take more than a

page. You can just e-mail it to us. You know, we read it.

So it's not supposed to be a really complicated process.

Other questions before I move on?

TOM PATTERSON: Can I ask if folks are mulling over

all this information and that it makes sense, or are they

mulling over the information and are waiting to ask


JEREMY: One of the other things before we move on

I'll say is, some of you who are going to be disaggregating

data, if you're willing to share your methodology with

other people and give them ideas, that might be helpful


Okay. I'm going to move on, so you can move on to

the next slide.

I ended the last thing about disaggregation saying,

we're trying to make this as uncomplicated as we can. Just

send us a Word document. That's going to be the overriding

principle of what we're trying to do here is, we're trying

to make it as uncomplicated as we can. Now, I said earlier

that one of the motivations for us not doing a huge, you

know, online data collection was that we have to follow

these rules from the Office of Management and Budget. And

also in the discussion what came out is the fact that we're

already at the end of the first year of the grant. The

next two years of the grant are going to fly by, so our

question was, what should these people be spending their

time on? Should they be spending their time on developing

really big data-collection infrastructures, or do we want

them spending their time getting the work of the grant

done? Well, we, obviously, decided to go for the latter

and to just keep things as simple as we could in the data

collection because, again, you know, the clock really is

ticking. Lucky for us, we'll have the Pass It On Center

around for another two years after that to continue work on

some of these national issues. But we know that a lot of

you are burning the candles on both ends to get things done

in the next three years. So that's why we're going to try

to keep this data collection simple.

So, for instance, one of the things you're going to

report in your next year's 524B is the number of

individuals receiving devices from your program. All

right? And the first thing I'd say is, this is as simple

as you think. It literally is, How many people did you

give devices to? The only complexity there is, we're just

saying, you know, it's not, you know, the individual and

his mother and his brother showed up, and that counts as

three people. It is just the individual who is receiving a

device that you count. That's where we're just going to

have a line that you fill in that says, you know, "How many

individuals received devices?" It could be 20. It could

be 500. Whatever that number is, it's how many people got

devices from your program. Hopefully, that's pretty

straightforward. Next slide, please.

Now, after asking you about how many people

received devices, we're going to want information about the

number of devices reused. Now, just because you reused

devices to 400 people, doesn't mean it has to be 400

devices. It couldn't be less than 400, but it certainly

could be more because we understand that sometimes people

receive two and three devices. They might receive two and

three devices, you know, at the same time. They might

receive two and three devices across the course of a year.

What we will have to discuss further is, let's say

somebody shows up in April and is asking for a wheelchair,

and then they show up in June, and they're asking for, you

know, some sort of cane or a walker or something like that.

You know, does that person count as two people? Does it

count as one person? It probably depends, really, on how

sophisticated your record-keeping system is and whether or

not you can keep track of, you know, was it the same person

that -- was it one single person that we gave two devices

to, you know, over time, et cetera? I think that's another

topic we can bring up at the end when Carolyn and Joy will

be talking about some of the data collection and tracking

systems that are already out there and whether or not they

have the ability to track things along those finite of


But suffice it to say, the number of devices

doesn't have to equal the number of people. You can have

more devices than people. However, we are going to ask

that they are broken down by the type of device. So if you

say you have 500 devices, that 500 is going to go, you

know, 10 of this kind of device, 10 of that kind of device,

5 of this kind of device, et cetera. And we have a

prescribed list to put them in.

The one thing that is, though, that amongst those

500 devices, if you say you recycled 500 devices, you can't

have 510 in different categories. A device goes only into

a single category. So even if a device could be used for

many things, you've got to choose the one that you want to

put it into. And there will be a table that I will show

you later that has information about this. Next slide,


So here are the categories of devices. There are

devices for vision, devices for hearing, speech

communication, learning cognition and developmental,

mobility seating and positioning, daily living,

environmental adaptation, vehicle modification and

transportation, computers and related, recreation, sports

and leisure, and other. There could be some things that

are completely out there that are not categorical. So the

idea is, you've recycled 50 devices over the course of the

data-collection period. Each of those 50 devices has to be

categorized in one of these categories. You can't

categorize it in two categories and double count it. You

just have to figure out, what's the most sensible place for

this device to go? Which is the most sensible category for

this device to go in? Can you go to the next slide?

And when it's not clear how to classify a device,

what you do is, think about the functional need that it's

serving or the assisting need that it's serving and put it

in that category. I think most people would argue that

while a wheelchair can be used for daily living, it's

probably a mobility device. So some of those are pretty


There are other devices that are not so clear. For

instance, is a telephone always a communication device?

Your program might decide that that's where you want to

classify telephones. What we are saying is, the other

choice there would be, you could look at the telephone and

figure out what about that telephone makes it assistive

technology and categorize it in that category. If it is a

telephone with large buttons, the reason the person wants a

telephone with large buttons is so that they can see the

buttons. Well, that actually might be assistive technology

for vision, so that telephone might, for instance, go into

vision. Or the person might want the telephone for --

because it has amplification with it. So you might say,

well, because this telephone has amplification, it actually

is addressing a hearing need. Therefore, I'm going to put

this telephone in the hearing category. So there is no

hard-and-fast rule of "this device always equals this." We

will be sending you, however, a list of definitions of each

of those device categories I listed that will include

decision rules about, well, here's how you think about the

devices that should go in this category as well as examples

of each device type.

So it is quite clear that from one state to

another, you know, the same device might be put in over

here, and in another case, it's going to be put in a

different category. From person to person the same device

might be put in a different category. The big thing to

emphasize here is, just be logical about your choices and

make sure that you decide, you know -- you decide where the

device goes, and it goes there, and it doesn't go into two


Let me pause here to see if there are any questions

about the device typology or how to put devices into


JOY KNISKERN: Jeremy, this is Joy. I'm wondering,

when will we be able to get the definitions, decision

rules, and examples of the device type to everybody? Or do

you want --

JEREMY: Will tomorrow work?

JOY: I think that's great.

JEREMY: Other questions?

Okay. Moving on to the next slide, then. Okay.

Now, so you've got how many people received devices.

You've got how many devices were reused, and those devices

were broken down by category. Those very same devices

you're also going to have to calculate the cost savings

related. Now, we know that a lot of you have different

methodologies for cost -- for calculating cost savings, and

we've got some folks out there doing return on investments,

et cetera. Again, we're taking the keep-it-simple

approach. We're saying, here's how you calculate cost

savings. Device A goes out the door. You figure out how

much that device would have cost new, how much you charged

the person for it, subtract, and that's the cost savings.

So if the new thing would have cost $500 and it cost them

$10 to get it from you, well then the cost savings was

$490. If you didn't charge them anything, then the cost

savings was $500 because the cost that you charged was


Now, somebody might bring in a device that really

isn't available anymore. So you're not able to find the

exact cost of it in a catalog or online, but there probably

is a similar device out there, so you certainly can

estimate the current purchase price of that device based on

a similar device that exists on the market still. So it's

really that easy.

Now, the folks who did presentations in Denver did

a great job telling us, you know what? Cost savings

definitely is not that easy. But again, for our purposes

-- because there's limited time left in the grant and

keeping consistent with the way we're calculating it into

data systems -- this is the approach we want to take.

So if you can advance to the next slide . . .

So this is how all of this comes together.

Essentially, you're going to have to fill out the table

that you're looking at. There's one column that lists all

the types of devices, one column that lists the numbers of

devices reused, one column that lists savings to consumers.

Again, this is aggregate so what you're going to do is,

you're going to have -- you're probably going to want some

record on each of the mobility devices you recycled. You

recycled 20 wheelchairs in the past year, and for each of

those 20 wheelchairs you know how much was saved. So what

you're going to do is, you're going to put 20 in the

"number of devices reused" column for mobility, and then

for those 20 devices you will, you know, add up the cost

savings and put the total cost savings in the "savings to

consumers." That's it. That's the whole breakdown you

have to do for the devices. So really what that means is,

you have to know what kind of devices are going in and out

the door, and you have to know the cost savings for each

one of them so you can add them all up at the end of the

year and put them in this table.

Basically, what we're looking at is your 524B. I

haven't figured out where yet, and I haven't figured out if

we're going to be able to put it up online like we did last

year, but somewhere in the 524B, essentially, you're going

to be filling out this table. There will be one line that

says, you know, how many people received devices, and you

put in the number of people, and then you fill out this

table. And that's, basically, going to be the quantitative

data you report in your 524B. And again, that is for next

year. That is the data that's starting this October 1st

through next May 31st that's going to be the data you plug

into this table and that you put in the line where we ask

you, "How many people received devices?"

So questions up to this point?

(No audio captured)

 . . . installment at the end of the

day is going to end up costing them $70, and they're paying

for that in seven payments of $10, I would say you just

call it $70 as the total. Where it gets complicated is if,

you know, they've paid 40 of the $70 during this

performance period and they finish up the other 30 in the

next performance period -- so in one year they paid 40, and

one year they paid 30 -- I would personally advocate you

just shift the whole kit and caboodle to one year or the

other. You either just say, "Well, over time it's going to

be $70, and we're going to claim it all this year," or you

say, "Well, we're not going to claim it this year. Let's

move them over to next year."

Does that make sense, or do we have the wrong

understanding about installment plans? Other questions?

JOY: I think Dorothy was trying to ask a question.

Dorothy, I don't know if you have a mike. You can type in

the little space below the emoticons.

JEREMY: Okay. Well, we'll move on to the next

slide, then. This time around, essentially, you're going

to have to fill out that table as well as answer any

questions about how many people will receive devices. Now,

that's going to be reported in addition to the types of

data you reported last year which was, "Well, we said in

year one we were going to do this, and this is what we've

done." Next time around you're going to say, "Well, we

said in year two we were going to do this, and this is what

we've done so far." So I really would recommend that you

save your work from last year because some of it you're

going to be building on things you did from last time

around and reiterating or saying, "Well, you know, last

year we got this far; this year we got that far." So just

look at it like this: It's, essentially, doing what you

did this last time around, adding the quantitative data.

If your program reaches the end of this reporting

period -- again, May 31st, 2008 -- and you don't have

quantitative data because your grant was given to you to

start a new program that is not up and running yet, then

all you will have to report is the qualitative data, and

that's fine. We've actually spoken to states individually

who have said they don't feel they'll be in that place yet,

so everyone will do a 524B, and they'll look relatively the

same, except that for those states who have quantitative

data, you're going to be responding to that quantitative


Now, we will hold, again, next year sort of a

refresher course on filling out a 524B. We'll go over all

of this again. But it's good for you to have it now so you

can be thinking about, "Okay. How am I going to collect

the number of people? How am I going to collect the cost

savings," et cetera, so that when it comes time to sit down

and fill out that table, you'll be ready to do so. And at

the end of the conversation, Joy and Carolyn will also be

discussing what's out there in terms of aids to help with

that. Next slide, please.

Okay. So like I said before, we're going to ask

you to have your 524Bs to us by June 30th because I need to

have everything finished up by July 30th, which means that

if you end your data collection -- that is, both

qualitative and quantitative data collection -- if you end

it on May 31st, it gives you one month to write and file

the 524B.

Now, here's where, again, the dates start getting

screwy. So your year-two quantitative data -- it will

start October 1st, 2007, to May 31st -- I have that wrong.

I'm sorry -- October 1st, 2007, to May 31st, 2008. So if

you're writing this down, scratch that out because it

should be May 31st, 2008. Then your year-three data is

actually going to go June 1st, 2008, through September

30th, 2009. But wait, Jeremy, that's very confusing.

Didn't you just say that you had to have all these reports

in by June of every year in order to give us our

continuation grants? That is true. However, year three is

not a continuation of your grant. That is the last year of

your grant. So your grant, then, actually does end. So

it's just this year two, which is kind of funky in terms of

the data collection. What you have happening is that with

your grant, we're always going to sort of be on this

starting-around-June-1 cycle, but the ending date is going

to vary based on what part of the grant you are in. So

you're just going to have to be aware and watch for that

shift. But again, each year we will tell you, "Okay. Your

data collection for this year is going to come from this

point to this point. Your 524B is going to be due on this

date, and your 524B needs to cover the following period."

So don't beat yourselves up trying to write this down and

figure this all out. You will receive warnings that say,

you know, "Here's all the stuff you're responsible for and

the dates that it covers."

So my recommendation is, just start, you know,

having the data collection happen on an ongoing basis so

that you can, essentially, parse it out according to the

correct calendar.

Next slide, please.

So like I had just finished talking about

year-three data -- so your year-three data then begins June

1, 2008, through September 30th, 2009, because a final

report on your grant is due December 30th, 2009. And

those, again, are tied back to your budget periods. So

your final report will actually capture the largest span of

data that you have, again both quantitative and

qualitative. The reason I decided to do it this way is,

the other choice was to ask you to provide us with two

reports in year three. We can have an annual progress

report in year three followed by a final progress report

three months later. That didn't make sense to me. I

figured, just do a final progress report that encompasses

the entire period, as opposed to breaking it up for you.

However, you need money, and so you are asking for a longer

period of time on your grant because you have not

accomplished your activities. We can grant you no-cost

extensions, but the same data collection has to continue

because what that essentially does is that pushes your

performance report out another 90 days. So if your grant,

in theory, is supposed to end the 30th and you say you know

what? We actually need six more months on this grant,

we'll give you six more months most likely. However, that

six more months means your final report isn't due for

another nine months, and you're going to have to keep

collecting the data during that entire period of time. I'm

not saying that as a way to deter people from asking for

the no-cost extension, but what I'm trying to say is that

once you start collecting data, you're going to need to

keep collecting it because it's going to need to be

included in a report at some point. Okay?

Are there any questions about these -- about any of

those issues? Okay.

So what I think is going to be wise for us to do is

to send people a paper copy of some of the things that we

went over in this Webinar -- an electronic copy that you

can print onto paper of the table so you have in mind "I'm

going to have to fill out this table." I can send you some

sort of a calendar that shows "Here are all the budget

periods and the performance periods" if you want to keep

track over time. But again, bear in mind that we will send

you notification well in advance so you understand how

everything lines up. Okay?

So can you advance the slide, please?

So the last thing is, I know that in -- I know that

in Denver we had a pretty long discussion and presentation

about outcomes and outcome measures. What we had decided

to do is, RSA is not going to collect outcome measures from

you. Again, one of the reasons is, we wanted to take the

simple approach, and we know that the outcome measures

require follow-up, which requires extra time. And time

right now is something we're not going to have over the

next two years. It will be very difficult to have all the

data that we want in a real formal way in such a short

period of time from the grantees. All we're going to be

asking you for is those raw numbers. We're not going to be

asking you for those outcome measures that we had discussed

in Denver. I'm sure that nobody is particularly upset by

that at this point. You can certainly let us know if

you're upset by that, but we figured that that actually

would come to people -- that this modification from what

was presented in Denver would actually be a relief to

people, as opposed to something that would cause them

anxiety. So, you know, the basic breakdown is this: You

have the question that you'll have to answer on how many

people received devices, and then you'll have the table

that you fill in about the devices that were reused. And

all of that will be in addition to the 524B that you --

something similar to the 524B that you turned in this time

around. I don't know precisely where the table or the

question about the number of people served will end up in

the 524B, but you will receive some sort of a format or

training on, "Here's how to fill out your 524B" closer to

the time of it happening.

So that is really pretty much it for the

presentation that I have. We can then move on to the next

part of the presentation. We'll pause for some questions

if people have questions for me, and then Joy or Carolyn

can take it over from there. Thank you very much for your


CAROLYN: Thank you so much, Jeremy. You always do

such a good job making information that could be pretty

darn dry not so dry. So thank you. We really appreciate


And if y'all do have questions, feel free to go

ahead and type them in or raise your hand. I'm going to

release this in just a second. And then, we're going to

move forward with the rest of the presentation.

And, Laurie, that's great that you enjoyed that

too. So any questions, let us know.

JOY: Okay. I still want to pause a little bit

before we go into the next part of the presentation. And

are there any other questions that folks have at this

point? This is Joy.

Okay. With that, I'm going to go ahead and start,

and as you heard Jeremy say, RSA is not asking for any kind

of outcome measures, performance measures, outcome data,

and so on, but we also remember very clearly from talking

with various of you that you are very interested in looking

at some kinds of outcome data and performance measures that

we could gather from you. So we really need your help, and

so that's what this section of the presentation is about.

Let's move on to the next slide.

So RSA is going to be collecting both quantitative

and also qualitative measures on your 524B annual reports,

as Jeremy mentioned, but the numbers and some of your

qualitative data -- they only tell part of what we might

call the AT Reuse Story. And that is, what are we all

about? What's the value of what we are really doing? So

we would like to ask for your participation in gathering

some additional information that really looks at, why would

a person come to your AT reuse program? What do they hope

to achieve with a reuse device? And how satisfied were

they with your services? And I know that probably many of

you are already collecting some of this data if you're in

AT state programs. Some of the data that we'll be going

over you already have to collect for the AT state program,

and so we're hoping that what we're presenting and

requesting for people to do on a voluntary basis would not

present any kind of an undue burden. And we believe that

this information is at least as important as the actual

numbers of the people that you're serving.

So let's move on to the next slide.

And these voluntary performance measures that I'm

going to go over with you, really what it will accomplish

for us -- it gives us the paint or the data to the Pass It

On Center that we can use to create a picture of the AT

reuse story, and really we might even say AT reuse stories

because there are different kinds of programs that you

operate, and all of them have tremendous value to the

people that you're serving in your communities. But we've

got to be able to tell that story. And so what we want to

go for is some of the value-added information that really

shows how the extra investment of RSA grant dollars really

mean to people in the community and society at large.

Let's go on to the next slide.

And with the information that I'll be reviewing

with you in a minute, we hope with that and with other

information that we will gather from your best practices

and so on, to be able to paint a picture, tell people what

we are doing, how you're doing it, why it's of critical

value to all the individuals that you're working with on a

day-to-day basis, and really to society at large. What

you're doing at your respective state levels and in your

communities is something that we -- that is so important to

be able to communicate to people, and we're hoping that

with what we do, it's information that you, too, in turn,

can use for your sustainability plans and so on. Let's

move on to the next slide.

And as I said before, and as Jeremy said, RSA is

only requiring the information that he covered. Anything

that we're asking from you is totally voluntary, and at the

end of the conversation, we want to open it up to some

discussion among you, a little bit more about what you're

currently collecting and whether or not what we're

proposing is feasible for you, if there are other kinds of

information that you can share a little bit about what that

might be so we can begin to get a picture as to what this

would look like. What we would do at the end of the second

year is -- once we have this information from those of you

who can volunteer that and also with information from RSA

that you share -- is putting that together into a report

that's not going to be something that sits on people's

shelves, by all means, but something that we can share with

policy makers, with manufacturers of assistive technology,

and with anybody else who's interested in future planning,

and also for you and your states in your respective

sustainability efforts. And then, again, we would see

ourselves producing another such report at the end of the

third year and collective report that sort of sums it all

up together -- so certainly two reports, possibly as many

as three. Let's go on to the next slide.

What are we talking about when we're talking about

these performance measures? And just as Jeremy has adapted

the quantitative information that would be used in your

524B from the NISAT tool itself, we will also be doing the

same thing or at least we're proposing to do the same

thing -- use what NISAT has already developed for this part

of the voluntary data requests.

So let's move on to this document next. And we're

breaking this -- what you're going to see here is totally

invisible. You can see, though, that what we're asking

from you -- if you can volunteer to complete this on a

person-by-person basis -- that this would be a one-page

form altogether, and what we're going to do next is look at

each component of that form so you can really see what

we're talking about. So those of you who are AT programs,

all of this will be very familiar, I think. What we have

done is made a few tiny changes in this so that it sort of

collapses both the acquisition part of NISAT on the

performance measures as well as the customer satisfaction

piece as well. It's all in one piece, and so the first --

very top part of the form is information that would be

completed by you or your staff where you put a grantee name

-- your grantee name, and then actually below, there's

supposed to be three little check boxes here -- one in

front of "device exchange," one in front of "device reuse,"

and one in front of "open-ended loan programs."

And just to clarify the latter, what open-ended

loan programs mean are those programs that are reutilizing

devices. But when you give it to a person for whatever

reason that is specific to your program, it's an open-ended

loan. You don't expect to ever go and request the

equipment again. You hope that the person may give it back

to you when they're finished with it, but you do consider

it an open-ended loan, but it is considered AT reuse.

And then the date that the service delivery was

completed, the date that the person received the device,

and then also the date that the form was received -- and

later on I'm going to go through some tips that we found

very useful when we're trying to collect this data that

makes it very, very simple. At least it has for us in

Georgia, and we're hoping, you know, that some of you are

already doing this or that you will find that it's pretty

straightforward. All right. Let's go on to the next


All right. The next section of the form -- and,

again, all of this is on one page -- is that the person in

the next several -- there are four categories that follow.

This is the first one. In each of these sections of the

survey, it's something that the person or their

representative would complete, and so the first thing that

a person would select when they receive the AT reutilized

device is the type of benefit this device would provide to

them. In getting this device, is this going to help them

participate in an educational-type program -- elementary

school, preschool, high school, postsecondary school,

continuing education, any form of education? Only one of

these would be checked, and we do realize there are some

types of devices where a person may use it in several

different categories, but we want to force that check.

What is the main benefit that this device will provide to

that person in receiving it?

The next category is community living, and it's

defined there as carrying out daily activities,

participating in community activities, using community

services, or living independently.

The next category is employment. Is this device

primarily going to benefit a person in finding or keeping a

job, getting a better job, participating in an

employment-training program, vocational-rehabilitation

program, or another program related to employment? Now,

you may have, for example, a person who is getting a

wheelchair from you, and for whatever reason, they've come

to your program. Other resources were not available to

them, or they chose not to select those other resources.

And we can see that probably if the person is also going to

seek employment and they're going to be involved in

education and they're obviously going to be using their

wheelchair in community-living activities, which one would

that person select? It's really their choice as to where

they see that primary benefit being -- the primary purpose.

Okay. Let's move on to the next slide.

In the second category, the person is asked to

choose, you know -- they're asked to indicate, by only one

answer, why did they choose to obtain this device from your

program? So many people who come to the AT reuse program,

I know they tell us that that they've really looked at so

many different other resources, and for whatever reason

they can't find a device elsewhere, so they're coming to

this program. And so in that case, that would be the box

that they would probably select. Other people may select

that they're not eligible, don't qualify for other

programs, or the AT is not covered by other funding

sources. And that's where they would select that

particular choice. And in the third category, the AT would

be available to that person through other programs, but for

whatever reason, the person has decided that they want to

come to you. The system was too complex. The wait time

was too long. For whatever reason, they might check that

one or none of the above, and they're not asked to give any

other comments about that.

I was reading some information recently about the

numbers and the increasing numbers of uninsured Americans

and how, you know, this population, as we all know -- if

they need assistive technology, oftentimes those are people

who are really caught in the middle, and we don't have

anything that would clarify that. But you know there may

be other kinds of information that you want to add to your

data collection that would help you understand who your

customers are and why they're coming to you. Let's move on

to the next one.

Okay. "Which of the following best reflects your

level of satisfaction with the services you received from

the program?" And the person should only check one:

"highly satisfied, satisfied, somewhat satisfied, or not

satisfied at all." And this satisfaction data in the NISAT

tools, for those of you who are AT state programs, is a

totally separate form. And for our purposes, we've put

this all together into one piece. Let's move into -- and

why do we ask this? I think that most of you some way or

another -- you're already asking this to the customers who

are receiving it. And if you're not, you can certainly

feel sure that you will gain a great deal of information by

just asking this one question.

But let's go on to the fourth one that we've added

here. Let's go on to the next slide.

"Are there ways that we can improve our services?"

This is your opportunity to ask your customers, what can

you do, as a program, to improve your services? And

actually, what we need to include on our form is, this is

optional for us to receive. It certainly would be helpful

for us to know because I do believe -- we believe so

strongly -- and the voice of people at the grassroots level

that we're serving -- and I know all of you are in the same

place -- we learn so many things and so many good tips from

our customers that we literally use to improve our

services. So we'd love to receive that information from

you, assuming that you're going to volunteer to complete

this information and send it in anyway. But we'd

especially like to point out that if for any reason you

don't feel that you want to share this information and just

use it for your own program purposes, that's fine with us

as well. We don't have an issue with that. Let's go on to

the next slide.

Now, one of the things that Jeremy mentioned is

that we realize that many of you may already be collecting

this and have a system to collect this kind of information

because you're in AT state programs. On the other hand, we

also know that some of you don't have this -- any kind of

setup or maybe it's a different setup. And we, in Georgia

and, I think, Kansas has already volunteered in the past --

have data-collection systems that we've set up. We would

be more than happy to work with our data specialist to pull

out those sections of our data-entry format for your

purposes. Or if you want to look at the whole nine yards,

you can do that as well.

And, Carolyn, can we get -- at least our system --

is there a way that they can access that and take a look at

it if they're interested?

CAROLYN: Yes, we sure can make that open to

everybody. We've got a little demo version up on the Tools

For Life Web site, and I'll send the address out for

everybody so that you can explore that for yourself.

JOY: And, Sara, if your offer is still on the

table, certainly jump right in.

And if any others of you have a system that

includes this information, please feel free to make

comments to that effect as well.

Okay, Tom. Let's move on to the next slide. Okay.

I mentioned that we wanted to cover some of the lessons

learned about the consumer survey and ways to collect this

information simply. And what we do with many of our

programs, our subcontractors will use a point-of-contact

survey so that when the person picks up the information --

you remember back on the form it has a place where you can

list the date that the person received the device, and then

there's a second date and that reflects the date that the

form is actually being completed -- that particular

information and in many cases can be the very same date --

the date that they pick up the device, the date that they

complete the form. And one of the things that we've used

in the past is just having a computer set up with the

survey there so that if the person has the capability of

using a computer and they're willing to do it, they can

complete it right there on-site. If somebody needs

assistance, we can help them, using the computer directly.

We can do it for them. If you're using printed forms, then

that can be done on-site as well. And we've done that in

the past.

And literally, I think, at ReBoot we had a

part-time person who was able to be employed because we're

putting out so many computers, and we really needed

assistance in gathering this information. So we were able

to create a part-time job for a person with a disability

who's just done an excellent job with that. So there are a

lot of different ways to do this. And we'd like to be able

to keep it as simple as possible for those of you who would

be willing to volunteer. Let's move on to the next slide.

Oh, I see that Sara's made a comment that Kansas

has a clone that's available, if people are willing to look

at it, and so you can see Sara's e-mail address. We'll

send that out again in our e-mail, and we'll certainly let

you take a look at that.

Now, before we talk about any other outcome

measures, I just wanted to get a sense from people who have

listened to this part of the session as to, number one,

what are you -- are you collecting any of this already?

And is this something that you think you could do? Because

we feel like this kind of information is going to be

awfully important to us.

Before you respond to that, we're also very aware

that many of you, as Jeremy had mentioned, are already

collecting some incredible outcome measures, and that kind

of information would also be very useful to share with us.

If we can collect this from you, we're thinking that the

time to do it is when your other reports are due. That

just seems like a logical sequence.

And so with that, what I'd like to do is just open

the floor for comments and questions and anybody who

believes that they can participate with us, we'd love to

hear from you. Thank you.

TOM: And Joy -- this is Tom Patterson with Pass It

On Center -- I also wanted to mention that the Pass It On

Center Web site is looking for your wonderful success

stories or even your struggles as you work to develop your

programs. So you don't necessarily need to wait and share

your stories. If something great happens, please let us

know. And I'm going to put up my e-mail address, and you

can send them to me, and we'll get them up on our Web site.


JOY: And remember, with any kind of stories that

you have that you do want to share, we all have to be

cognizant of HIPAA and releases and any information like

that. But a success could be something like, obviously,

procuring additional space for, you know, what you're doing

or adding on new partners or all kinds of things.

Now, I see that Jeremy has made a comment here.

Let's take a look at what he's saying. Okay. I like your

comment, Jeremy. That's excellent. Yes, community

participation by Paraquad or decreased hospitalization by

FREE in Virginia -- absolutely. And if any of you are

collecting information such as reducing the incidences of

falls by helping, for instance, seniors get grab bars in

their bathrooms, things like that, we've heard a lot from

other people about that.

Let's see. And Carrie Morgan has made a great

comment and Carla Walker. Okay. Good. Good. Wonderful.

Let me also ask, then, in terms of what we've presented

here, if we supply these -- this format to you as a

one-page type of form in an electronic type of format, can

you -- how many of you think you'd be able to use that as

well as what you're already collecting or if you're not

collecting any of this, would you be able to do it? Is

this something that you think would be possible for you?

Thank you, Jane. Thank you, Kansas. All right, Robin.

Right on. Thank you. Paraquad. Okay. Good.

Is there anybody who thinks that they need to look

at the electronic database that we have? Dorothy, you're

-- okay. Great. Yes. Okay. Good. Thank you, Kristen.

Wonderful. Wonderful. Great. Okay.

And I think most of the states, the AT reuse

grantees are on today. There may be a few people who were

not able to join us today, and we'll follow up with them

individually. Okay. Great. Okay.

Paul, you want to look -- great. We'll get the

databases to you. Good. All right. Well, it looks like

we've got pretty good buy-in here, and I can't tell you how

good that makes us feel.

And for anybody who's collecting any other kind of

outcome data we would love to be able to hear from you.

More specifically, we could do, perhaps, even another

Webinar just to talk about what kind of outcome measures

some of you are already gathering that maybe not everybody

else is doing and just see where that takes us. I think

that would be a very interesting discussion.

CAROLYN: And I see, Paul and Jane, that you said

you would like to see the databases, and Sara actually

offered hers. She said if you would like to see that, you

can e-mail her directly at And thank you,

Sara. We really appreciate you always being so willing to

share. As I said, I will definitely send out the e-mail --

an e-mail to y'all so that you can see our database. There

will be a link attached. So that's no problem.

And thanks again everybody for being so willing to

do this. We appreciate it, and we appreciate the buy-in,

and we also wanted to keep it simple, so I'm glad that

y'all recognize that too. Very good.

And, Joy and Jeremy, excellent job. We really

appreciate y'all sharing this information with us, and it

looks like Joy has something else that she would like to

add, and then we will turn it back over to Caroline Van

Howe to talk a little bit more about ATIA -- the upcoming

ATIA conference, and then we'll wrap up. So Joy?

JOY: Yes, I just wanted to mention to those states

who are interested in looking at the databases, that's

fine. We'll certainly, you know -- you can certainly

follow up with Sara, as Carolyn mentioned, and we'll give

you a link where you can get to our database. Wanted to

mention that when you look at that, you're going to see a

lot more information than just the piece that, for

instance, Jeremy presented or I presented. It would be a

lot more detail than what you may want to collect, but take

a look at that because the whole nine yards would be

available to you.

On the other hand, if you want for our database

person to sort of separate out so that all you have on the

voluntary basis is what we've presented, that's fine. Not

a problem.

CAROLYN: Does anybody have any other questions or

comments that they would like to share with us about what

Jeremy or Joy had before Caroline talks to us about ATIA?

Okay. Caroline, do you mind talking to us? I see

that you're posting information about the dates and also

information about the Web site, so I'll pass it over to you

for just a few more minutes.

CAROLINE VAN HOWE: Yes, I just wanted to let

everybody know -- I think many of you know this, but I'll

just repeat the information for any newcomers who are on

board or on the team. It's that our ATIA 2008 which is

held in Orlando, Florida, in January -- the last couple of

the days of January and the first couple of days of

February, there will be a reuse mini strand which is

several presentations by many of you on the Webinar today.

And thanks, in particular, to Sara Sack and also Beth Mineo

who have been managing that strand for the Pass It On

Center, so we have five or six presentations on reuse.

We're featuring them as one of our four mini strands at

this year's conference. The other mini strands, just to

let you know -- we have a focus on autism, on NIMAS, and

also on the AT Act programs and alternative financing

programs as well. What I would encourage you to do is go

on -- we also have a special discount registration for all

of the Pass It On Center grantees in the program. So that

is a special discount that Carolyn, Joy, and Tom will be

sending you more details via e-mail a little bit later.

We'll be open for registration as of September the 19th. I

also wanted to let you know we're planning a very big focus

on reuse at this year's conference. I want to make sure

you're all aware of that as part of the overall partnership

ATIA has with the Pass It On Center.

If you have any questions or if Sara and/or Beth

wanted to add anything, I'd also be happy to hear from them

as well.

CAROLYN: Caroline, thank you so much, and we

really do appreciate the collaboration with ATIA, and we're

very, very excited about the reuse mini strand.

And once again, thanks Sara Sack and Beth for

pulling that together for us. We really appreciate it. I

think it is going to be very exciting. We're hearing some

really positive things about that.

I also wanted to let folks know that we at the Pass

It On Center and Jeremy from RSA are going to be at the

MedTrade Conference October 2nd through the 4th in Orlando,

Florida. And several folks are going to be going down

there with us to do a panel discussion, and we're excited

about that. We're also going to do some focus groups down

there, and we'll keep you posted about how that progresses.

And it looks like Sara just posted that the

sessions do look really strong. I agree with you, Sara. I

hope to see everyone there also.

Caroline, I know that some folks actually got

information that they are going to be -- that they are

alternates. Can you explain that a little bit more to us,

just what that means because we've had a couple questions

about what that really means?

CAROLINE: Yes, I'd be happy to. What we've done

is, we have about 450 sessions submitted for the ATIA

Conference of which we were able to schedule approximately

275, so we have a number of concurrent sessions. So we

scheduled -- we have strand managers in every one of the

strands who are leaders in their field, and they look at

all of the submitted sessions in their area of expertise,

and they decide their top-ranking ones, and those are

selected, and those are scheduled. But we do have a number

of other sessions of interest who we're not able to

schedule at this time. So we've asked them to be alternate

sessions as we find that as we get close to conference,

that for a number of different reasons, some of the

scheduled speakers need to decline attending the conference

for personal and/or professional reasons. And that's when

we go to the alternate speakers and say, "We do have a

session spot that's freed up. Would you be able to

participate as a speaker?" although we were not able to

schedule them at the scheduling time. So that's the

process by which we determine the alternate speakers, and

we do find that we use approximately between 10 and 20

percent of our alternate speakers. We do ask them to

present because, like I said, for various reasons, the

scheduled speakers are not able to make the conference


CAROLYN: Okay. Thank you so much for explaining

that. We really appreciate you giving us more detail.

Thank you very much.

Jeremy and Joy, excellent job. We really

appreciate all your work in pulling this Webinar together.

We actually -- just so y'all know -- when we turned in the

Pass It On annual report to RSA, we did put in a lot of

energy and thought into the next Webinars and also kind of

where are we headed for the next year. And so we did want

to discuss some of that with you during our next Webinar,

and so -- and a lot of that actually is based on the

technical assistance that you requested from us in Denver.

We definitely have listened to you, and we are definitely

going ahead and planning Webinars. We've contacted several

of you to see if you can present for us during some of

these, and we also are expecting some of the Pass It On

task force study groups to start reporting out some of the

information that they've been working on soon so that we

can do some Webinars around the information that they're

discovering for us, which is good, including liability and

disaster response and things like that.

So we're excited about the upcoming schedule of

Webinars. If you know of other folks within your centers

that you want to invite to be a part of this, please know

that the doors are definitely open for folks that are the

grantees that want to be a part of this or any of the task

force members -- no doubt about that. We have had some

requests from other folks that would like to start joining

the Webinars, and we're definitely going to be opening some

of these up. We've got that in our plan for next year. So

we'll be opening that up and probably have quarterly

Webinars that would kind of look at more general issues

when it comes to AT reuse and how -- passing some of that

information on to folks that are out there that are doing

reutilization. So we did want to let you know about that

plan also.

So do you have any questions for us before we

close? I've got -- I guess it's about 3:22, and we said we

were going to go to 3:30. So any other questions that you

have for us at this point?

JOY: Carolyn, I just wanted to remind everybody,

too, that we will be coming out with sort of a calendar for

the next six months of these audio conferences that Carolyn

is talking about. And on the 25th please hold your

calendars 2:00 to 3:30 again. We're still shooting for, I

think, the last Tuesday of every month, although I know

this summer we did have to do some switching around. But

we will come out with a calendar of speakers, and if we

don't have something filled in, it will be TBA, so be

looking for that very shortly.

CAROLYN: Yes, that's great. Looking forward to

having the calendar, and we'll definitely have that

information up on our Web site. So thank you, Joy.

Any other questions or comments from y'all? Okay.

Well, thank you so much, everyone, for participating in

this. We hope that everything is going well your way and

definitely want to let you know, as always, that you can

contact us. You can e-mail us, call us, what have you. We

have really enjoyed working with y'all and appreciate you

working with us as we continue to grow in our knowledge and

our skills and also grow the AT reuse community. So thank

you so much, and y'all take care.

Thank you also, Caroline, for your help. We really

appreciate it, as always.